84 replies to this topic

[SolarEclipse]

What are your opinions on lab blocks? Harmful, necessary, optional?

[lil BIG dwarf]

I’d say their optional. They’re good for making sure you’re hamster has all the needed vitamins and minerals, but hamsters in the wild don’t eat them. I’d say they’re good in a mix with plenty of other things that’s high in variety, but if you found a trustworthy source without pellets go for it.

[Kikya]

I think people use them for convenience and because there aren't many better options.

 

I don't use them and I make my own seed mix. I'm happy with what I have and my hammies enjoy it.

Edited by Kikya, 28 February 2022 - 09:55 AM.

[azzashadowslayer]

I'd say that they're optional, and if possible you should opt for none or a small amount. obviously you need to be educated enough to do that!!

 

a big reason that a high variety seed mix is necessary is so that they get all the different nutrients they need from it, even if they might ignore a couple things. if you aren't able to get a high enough variety seed mix, then it's definitely better to have pellets than to not have pellets.

 

I have a pretty small amount of pellets in my seed mixes (robin's gourmet food + versele-laga (which includes pellets) + animal protein) and my hamsters honestly ignore the pellets, I've never seen them eating any. I'm sure they have them once in awhile, but not very much! my syrian has been eating that food for a good eight months now, and my robo for about four, and neither of them have had any issues. if anything, I've seen improvements!!

 

I'd say pellets are good if you need a safety barrier/feel more comfortable having one, but you don't need them, so long as you have a proper mix!

[ForgetfulBreeze]

Personally I think that they are optional. This is because hamsters in the wild do not have lab blocks and if your mix has enough variety and your hamster should be fine. if you don't feel comfortable with using no lab Blocks then you can just simply add them in. With a mix that has a lot of ingredients, I think your ham will be fine. You obviously have to be very educated to create a homemade mix that has all the different ingredients, but you can always use a block as a safety barrier for your mix.

Edited by ForgetfulBreeze, 02 March 2022 - 02:27 AM.

[Lillias]

As the entire diet - harmful - Hams need variety and some proper natural foods. Diet isn't just about hitting the numbers.

 

With a commercial seed mix - optional - Higgins/Mazuri is an easy option, but I prefer dried single-ingredient proteins to boost the protein in a commercial mix to avoid having loads of pellets (commercial mixes are typically already fortified with some form of pellet). 

 

With a homemade mix - probably necessary - While I like the idea of an entirely natural "whole foods" diet, realistically we don't yet have the tools to make sure we're providing all the proper micronutrients and pet hamsters can't go out and get what they need. Nutrient deficiency can be scary and difficult to diagnose in rodents (because blood tests are risky for tiny creatures). My hope is that if they have a deficiency, nature will kick in and make them seek out the pellets.

[Kikya]

With a homemade mix - probably necessary - While I like the idea of an entirely natural "whole foods" diet, realistically we don't yet have the tools to make sure we're providing all the proper micronutrients and pet hamsters can't go out and get what they need. Nutrient deficiency can be scary and difficult to diagnose in rodents (because blood tests are risky for tiny creatures). My hope is that if they have a deficiency, nature will kick in and make them seek out the pellets.

This might be true if you are using animal grade foods, because they are not required to disclose nutrient information. However, it's a lot easier to judge that when you are using human grade foods. I only use human grade foods in my mix. While that does not guarantee that grains/seeds are raised in such a way that the nutrient quality is high, I go out of my way to find seeds that are of good quality.

 

Where your food comes from matters. Commercially raised seeds are not going to contain the nutrients of seeds/grains that are grown with natural fertilizers and regenerative methods of farming do. My son gets blood work 4 times a year. Before being picky about my food and where it comes from, he had low numbers every year, including with VERY high levels of prescription grade supplements. (not the cheap knockoffs they use in lab blocks, those are just the by-products of chemical processes for other things, that they figured out how to make money off of. That was previously just going into the garbage)

 

After researching and figuring out how pick foods with high quality nutrients, his levels shot up and this is with someone who has trouble absorbing nutrients. It's not nearly as difficult with people or animals with normal absorption rates.

[Lillias]

I definitely agree that the quality of the ingredients matter, and typically human-grade ingredients have higher standards. However, you won't know if a hamster has trouble absorbing nutrients because you can't run four blood tests a year on them.

 

Also, most people using homemade diets are buying them from someone else online, and there aren't full nutritional analyses available. If you are doing your own extensive research and mixing your own food and adjusting if you see symptoms of nutrient deficiency, then you might be able to get by without the lab blocks. In most cases though, people are relying on protein/fat/fiber percentages and trusting that the seller has done their research. There isn't extensive testing done on homemade food, so buyers don't know there's an issue until multiple previous buyers report a problem.

 

On the other hand, relying on lab blocks as the major source of nutrients can be an issue because nutrients counteract each other. It's the fatal flaw of the multivitamin. Some nutrients use the same "door." So if an animal naturally eats a varied diet, it's important to reflect that variety so that the nutrients can take turns throughout the day.

[Kikya]

I definitely agree that the quality of the ingredients matter, and typically human-grade ingredients have higher standards. However, you won't know if a hamster has trouble absorbing nutrients because you can't run four blood tests a year on them.

Also, most people using homemade diets are buying them from someone else online, and there aren't full nutritional analyses available. If you are doing your own extensive research and mixing your own food and adjusting if you see symptoms of nutrient deficiency, then you might be able to get by without the lab blocks. In most cases though, people are relying on protein/fat/fiber percentages and trusting that the seller has done their research. There isn't extensive testing done on homemade food, so buyers don't know there's an issue until multiple previous buyers report a problem.

On the other hand, relying on lab blocks as the major source of nutrients can be an issue because nutrients counteract each other. It's the fatal flaw of the multivitamin. Some nutrients use the same "door." So if an animal naturally eats a varied diet, it's important to reflect that variety so that the nutrients can take turns throughout the day.

If your hamster has problems absorbing nutrients, unfortunately, he's likely to die anyway. There wouldn't be anything anyone could do for him. No lab blocks would help that.

My son took 5000 IU of just vitamin D (not a multivitamin), for years on end. Only to have abysmally low vitamin D levels. It was only after changing his diet to high quality foods that he's finally at normal levels.

Lab blocks are made of some of the cheapest chemicals there are. Even if you were to supplement with them, they don't do you much good.

I don't think many homemade foods are going to do a lab test for analysis. Even if they did, it doesn't mean you'll get exactly what's in it. There are many factors at play in absorption of nutrients. Just because your cereal box says you get 100% of your vitamin B in one bowl, doesn't mean that's true. It means they added white powder to your food that represents 100% of your daily vitamin intake. Unfortunately, vitamin b deficiency is one of the most common, which is crazy when you think how much cereal the average person eats a year.

I guess my point is, I'd rather take my chances with mother nature. Since you know, she's the one who figured out how to combine the nutrients with the things you need to absorb them. Such as, fat soluble vitamins stored inside animal fats, or water soluble vitamin c in a hard, not clear package filled plant water aka an orange.

Humans haven't figured out how to replicate this in a lab. Nor do we know anything about the side effects of supplemention, because they aren't required to be studied, even though they are just as interactive as taking medicine. Most vitamin supplements are just byproducts of other chemical processes, usually something involving oil production.

Think about this, you are giving your hamster a food which includes lab blocks. Then he needs an antibiotic. Some antibiotics will be rendered ineffective by supplemental vitamins. This is why they tell you not to take vitamin supplements 6 hours before or 2 hours after. How would you even begin to prevent that. You might be able to find his food hoard but you couldn't be sure, then what you pick out all the lab blocks before giving it to him? If his diet isn't nutritionally complete without lab blocks, is he going to be deficient for the 1-2weeks it takes to finish the antibiotics?

There are a lot of unknowns and I'm not saying all homemade diets are great because there are certainly some that aren't great. But at least with homemade diets you are getting what nature intended, and not the byproducts of commercial factory farming or worse.

Edited by Kikya, 03 March 2022 - 08:23 PM.

[hotglue01]

If your hamster has problems absorbing nutrients, unfortunately, he's likely to die anyway. There wouldn't be anything anyone could do for him. No lab blocks would help that.

My son took 5000 IU of just vitamin D (not a multivitamin), for years on end. Only to have abysmally low vitamin D levels. It was only after changing his diet to high quality foods that he's finally at normal levels.

Lab blocks are made of some of the cheapest chemicals there are. Even if you were to supplement with them, they don't do you much good.

I don't think many homemade foods are going to do a lab test for analysis. Even if they did, it doesn't mean you'll get exactly what's in it. There are many factors at play in absorption of nutrients. Just because your cereal box says you get 100% of your vitamin B in one bowl, doesn't mean that's true. It means they added white powder to your food that represents 100% of your daily vitamin intake. Unfortunately, vitamin b deficiency is one of the most common, which is crazy when you think how much cereal the average person eats a year.

I guess my point is, I'd rather take my chances with mother nature. Since you know, she's the one who figured out how to combine the nutrients with the things you need to absorb them. Such as, fat soluble vitamins stored inside animal fats, or water soluble vitamin c in a hard, not clear package filled plant water aka an orange.

Humans haven't figured out how to replicate this in a lab. Nor do we know anything about the side effects of supplemention, because they aren't required to be studied, even though they are just as interactive as taking medicine. Most vitamin supplements are just byproducts of other chemical processes, usually something involving oil production.

Think about this, you are giving your hamster a food which includes lab blocks. Then he needs an antibiotic. Some antibiotics will be rendered ineffective by supplemental vitamins. This is why they tell you not to take vitamin supplements 6 hours before or 2 hours after. How would you even begin to prevent that. You might be able to find his food hoard but you couldn't be sure, then what you pick out all the lab blocks before giving it to him? If his diet isn't nutritionally complete without lab blocks, is he going to be deficient for the 1-2weeks it takes to finish the antibiotics?

There are a lot of unknowns and I'm not saying all homemade diets are great because there are certainly some that aren't great. But at least with homemade diets you are getting what nature intended, and not the byproducts of commercial factory farming or worse.

Just looking at this discussion for the first time, and WOW. Very interesting stuff.

I've been increasingly curious about the analysis of vitamins/protein etc for hamster mixes, and have found it all very overwhelming. 

I like what Kikya has to say here because it takes a common sense approach: Mother Nature tends to work things out for us, and for hammies. My male golden Syrian Aslan eats Higgins Sunburst, plus lots of sprays and an assortment of fresh veggies and fruits (but not too much-- definitely don't want to give him diarrhea). I do put in some extra pellets just in case, but like others have said, he doesn't really touch them. 

Not sure what I'm adding to a broader discussion here, lol, but I appreciate this topic. 

Edited by hotglue01, 04 March 2022 - 03:41 AM.

[Kikya]

Just looking at this discussion for the first time, and WOW. Very interesting stuff.

I've been increasingly curious about the analysis of vitamins/protein etc for hamster mixes, and have found it all very overwhelming. 

I like what Kikya has to say here because it takes a common sense approach: Mother Nature tends to work things out for us, and for hammies. My male golden Syrian Aslan eats Higgins Sunburst, plus lots of sprays and an assortment of fresh veggies and fruits (but not too much-- definitely don't want to give him diarrhea). I do put in some extra pellets just in case, but like others have said, he doesn't really touch them. 

Not sure what I'm adding to a broader discussion here, lol, but I appreciate this topic. 

That's why it's good to be in the debate section! It's good to hear from everyone!

[Lillias]

If your hamster has problems absorbing nutrients, unfortunately, he's likely to die anyway. There wouldn't be anything anyone could do for him. No lab blocks would help that.
 

It depends on how severe the issue is. I struggle with nutrient deficiencies, and I find that when I'm quite low, my body will trigger cravings for things that contain that nutrient (even if it's something I don't normally like). Severe absorption issues probably mean that there are other things wrong in the body as well, so yeah death. But we have subtle mechanisms to drive us to correct deficiencies, but the nutrient needed must be available.

 

I don't think many homemade foods are going to do a lab test for analysis. Even if they did, it doesn't mean you'll get exactly what's in it.

Yes, we don't absorb all the nutrients in food. However, I need to know the nutrients are there, so I have some starting information. I'm not going to trust a random Etsy seller to have covered all the required nutrients, and it's not like they are going to be providing scans of the nutrient info of all the ingredients they've put in their mix.

 

I agree with having a varied, mostly whole food diet, and pellets are the crutch that allows us to purchase and feed homemade diets, until the day when the ideal diet is created.

 

Mother Nature is great and all, but hamsters don't live to two and a half years in the wild. They get eaten. Nature never intended hamsters to live long, luxurious retirements. That's our goal, as pet owners. I know hamsters can live long lives on a protein-supplemented, higher quality commercial food (we know that none of them are truly high quality). If I'm going to feed them a homemade food, I need to know that I won't be inadvertently shortening their lives because the food maker overlooked something.

[Kikya]

It depends on how severe the issue is. I struggle with nutrient deficiencies, and I find that when I'm quite low, my body will trigger cravings for things that contain that nutrient (even if it's something I don't normally like). Severe absorption issues probably mean that there are other things wrong in the body as well, so yeah death. But we have subtle mechanisms to drive us to correct deficiencies, but the nutrient needed must be available.

 

Yes, we don't absorb all the nutrients in food. However, I need to know the nutrients are there, so I have some starting information. I'm not going to trust a random Etsy seller to have covered all the required nutrients, and it's not like they are going to be providing scans of the nutrient info of all the ingredients they've put in their mix.

 

I agree with having a varied, mostly whole food diet, and pellets are the crutch that allows us to purchase and feed homemade diets, until the day when the ideal diet is created.

 

Mother Nature is great and all, but hamsters don't live to two and a half years in the wild. They get eaten. Nature never intended hamsters to live long, luxurious retirements. That's our goal, as pet owners. I know hamsters can live long lives on a protein-supplemented, higher quality commercial food (we know that none of them are truly high quality). If I'm going to feed them a homemade food, I need to know that I won't be inadvertently shortening their lives because the food maker overlooked something.

So do you think all the german hamsters are suffering because their food doesn't have pellets? I mean the entire reason, I believe, that german hamster food doesn't use pellets is because they use high quality food (for their humans and animals) to start so they don't need to pretend their food has the essential vitamins and minerals. Most people consider german hamster care to be the one of the best in the world, if not the best. I don't see mass amounts german hamsters falling over dead at less than a year because their diets are causing starvation and you don't see a nutritional analysis on their websites either.

 

The thing is, it's not actually hard to make a good quality food, starting with good ingredients. The reason the US foods use this crutch, is because their foods are SO bad, they need to justify being able to even put it on the shelves. Most commercial foods for hamsters start with an ingredient that's not even digestible for them.

 

With regards to Etsy sellers, you should do your own research, contact the person, find out what they did to create their mix. I mean I don't trust everything on the grocery store shelf either. I do my own research and I find out how the food was grown and where it came from. Etsy sellers are no more inherently untrustworthy than the billion dollars companies that want your money above all else. Hamster food isn't exactly a lucrative business. No one is getting rich off making a homemade hamster food, most people do it because they are passionate about bringing hamsters good nutrition. Could they make mistakes? Sure but that's on you, the owner, to research it and make sure it's the right food for your pet.

Edited by Kikya, 04 March 2022 - 08:15 PM.

[Lillias]

Each homemade mix is different, so I can't assume that just because German hamsters are doing fine on homemade mixes, all homemade mixes are good. I know food mixers have good intentions, and I know (trust me, I know!) micro businesses don't make much money because the expenses are insane. However, there was a problem with one of these natural mixes a few years back, and there's no way to guarantee that another mix won't have an issue.

 

I cannot, as an owner, do the depth of research necessary on a homemade mix because I don't have access to the nutritional information, the percentages of each ingredient used, the source of the ingredients, etc. So yeah, I want a failsafe.

[Kikya]

Each homemade mix is different, so I can't assume that just because German hamsters are doing fine on homemade mixes, all homemade mixes are good. I know food mixers have good intentions, and I know (trust me, I know!) micro businesses don't make much money because the expenses are insane. However, there was a problem with one of these natural mixes a few years back, and there's no way to guarantee that another mix won't have an issue.

 

I cannot, as an owner, do the depth of research necessary on a homemade mix because I don't have access to the nutritional information, the percentages of each ingredient used, the source of the ingredients, etc. So yeah, I want a failsafe.

It also doesn't mean because one mix had an issue, means all of them do. Especially since hamster care and nutritional understanding has come along way in even just 5 years.

 

And I also find that etsy sellers are very open to questions and are happy to answer any of my questions. (and I ask a lot lol)