56 replies to this topic

[Charmer]

:)A human eating cow meat is like a snake eating a mouse... it's natural...

[missPixy]

I would really like to see Canada and the US move towards a more ethical approach to this problem. In some other country's (i believe the UK and Aus. are 2 of them) it is illegal to feed live animals and it is illegal for a pet store to offer extreme deals on PEW (Pink Eyed White aka. Albino) rats or mice. 'feeder' animals are only available pre-killed (humanely) and frozen and there is no chance of them suffering or injuring the snake or reptile. Also because they are pre-killed and frozen they are kept in a freezer where only people who are looking to buy them will see them, and we don't have to feel awful everytime we see them.

i would love to find out more about what went into making these laws... how they could be applied to the US market~~

first, i'd like to say i don't dislike snakes. i don't even dislike insects! what i do dislike is the notion that you go into buying an animal like a snake, and accept without question or serious debate the "necessity" of feeding live mice to the snake. when some ppl here have already outlined why even many snake owners are against this: injury to their snake, possible disease, etc.

theHawk: i will debate you on the assumption that God put animals on the planet for us to eat. if you read Genesis closely, you will see that animals were put on the planet as companions and helpers for man... God specifically says that all the fruit-bearing trees and herbs of the earth were put there as food~~ never the animals. there is even one section where God calls all the animals to man to see what man will name them.

yes, in the wild there are carnivores and there are herbivores. we aren't talking abt the wild here. we aren't talking about natural selection or the food chain. we're talking abt unnatural environments made for animals we choose to keep as pets. and although i don't have a snake (i would care for any animal if i found him or her in need) it's clear that there are alternative to live mice feeding. so if there are clearly alternatives preferred by long-time keepers of snakes, etc, , why continue feeding the live mice?

and charmer: i must say that eating cows isn't "natural" for humans. if it were "natural," humans would have fangs and claws that could tear that cow apart, just like wolves, lions, etc. do, ~~ the true carnivores. and we wouldn't require that the meat be packaged and cooked, if it were "natural" for us. also, btw, our intestinal tract is much longer than that of a carnivore's... the carnivore has a very short intestinal tract, meant to quickly digest the food and get rid of it. because our intestinal tract is much longer, suited to high-fiber foods and slower digestion, when we eat meat it simply stays in our digestive tracts too long, rotting and giving us colon cancer, slowed metabolism, etc.

but my main point to this topic is finding a way to prevent the lives of rodents from being trivialized. let's face it, wouldn't a snake also eat a week-old kitten or puppy? or bunny? the snake will eat whatever it can fit into his mouth~~ we're the ones who decided rodents, esp. mice, have the least important lives. why not feed a snake dwarf hamsters? what's the difference except the price? and from the many comments here, it's a fact that alternatives exist. why argue against the more humane alternatives?

Edited by missPixy, 20 February 2005 - 12:54 AM.

[mamagirl]

I'v been doing some more research into legislature banning live feeding of animals and have found that these laws aren't as air tight as i'v been told.

In the UK it is illegal to live feed any animal to another unless the one eating will not take dead prey. In cases were live feeding is neccesary then it must be supervised (although it doesn't say be whom), it is also recomended that the prey be stunned or knocked unconscious for the snake or herps safety (and they have to pay full price because pet stores cannot offer deals on 'feeder' animals). These laws include all animals including fish. They are protected under The Protection of Animals Act Here is a copy of the legislature.

In many other European nations there are similar laws but it appears that the UK (not including Northern Ireland) and possibly Ireland are the only country's were it is in effect country wide.

Most incidents of injury's from live feeding have been the result of trying to feed a snake or herp who isn't hungry enough. The mouse ( or other common 'feeder' animal such as rat, gerbil, syrian hamster, GP or rabbit) can easily injure or kill a snake if the snake is sleeping or basking. Other times the prey is so frightened that it lashes out, a bite from a rodent or rabbit in the wrong location (such as the skull or base of the head) is usually fatal. If the injury's are not fatal they can commonly get infected due to the bacteria that is usually found on the skin of most snakes and herps. There have been many incidents where the owner has dropped the food into the cage came back later to see the 'food' eating thier precious snake. I personaly would never risk the life of a pet so it could eat 'naturaly'.

Frozen food is also recomended because freezing it kills any parasites or other nasty's on or in it.

Not to mention that locking an animal in a cage with something ready to eat it is incredibly cruel. Can you imagine being locked in a room with a man eating tiger?! I don't see this as natural at all considering in the wild prey animals have many miles to hide in or escape to and in the wild predators usually choose to eat old, young or sickly animals because a healthy animal of any size is capable of defending itself.

My personal opinion on euthanasia (sp?) methods for 'food animals' is that CO2 is the only safe method. Some believe that it isn't entirely painless (due to them breathing in frozen air) but it is the only method that can be used at home or in a large scale 'breeder for food' enviroment that is controllable. The 'whacking' method sometimes only knocks them unconscious and is not practical for a large operation. Euthanasia by a vet uses chemicals which can harm the reptile or snake. For the most humane results you have to buy or build a special chamber which prevents them from breathing in the frozen air but allows them to breathe in the gas. I should also add that some (highly reputable) rat owners will use CO2 for at home euthanasia when a vet visit is impossible, i feel that if they are comfortable using it for thier beloved pet then it can't be too bad.

As to 'why someone would own a snake' i too agree that sometimes it is a testasterone thing but many times the owner just truly enjoys interacting with and watching snakes or reptiles. There are also people who only own rescue's such as my friend with the Caiman. I personaly am not interested in owning a snake but i would never tell someone else they shouldn't (and i would also consider fostering or adopting a snake or herp if it truly needed me and i was capable of providing proper care). I couldn't imagine if someone tried to tell me i couldn't own rats or hamsters or cats, i would definetly be fighting them even if it meant going to court or spending lots of money.

One thing i havn't touched on is 'snake sausages', they are food for rodent eating animals provided in a tube. Many people believe that they are going to be the next safe alternative in snake and herp feeding. I personaly feel that pre-killed whole rodents is much more beneficial to the snake. T-rex the company that makes snake steak sausages refuses to say what type of meat is in thier food, and although snakes can eat a wide variety of meat sources some are dangerous (pork has a bacteria that can be deadly to snakes) and some are just unhealthy (chicken or chicks quite often cause foul smelling and off colored feces and sometimes regurgitaition or diarhea). Not to mention that some snakes need a rodent based diet were others are more able to digest other foods also some species of snakes need fur/feathers in thier diet to aid digestion. So although some people feed sausages without health problems i personaly would not recomend them.

[Kelly_Bear]

theHawk: i will debate you on the assumption that God put animals on the planet for us to eat. if you read Genesis closely, you will see that animals were put on the planet as companions and helpers for man... God specifically says that all the fruit-bearing trees and herbs of the earth were put there as food~~ never the animals. there is even one section where God calls all the animals to man to see what man will name them.

i dont have my bible on hand,but i know i read that god put a few animals here for us to eat.

but i kno religions tend to vary...

and charmer: i must say that eating cows isn't "natural" for humans. if it were "natural," humans would have fangs and claws that could tear that cow apart, just like wolves, lions, etc. do, ~~ the true carnivores. and we wouldn't require that the meat be packaged and cooked, if it were "natural" for us. also, btw, our intestinal tract is much longer than that of a carnivore's... the carnivore has a very short intestinal tract, meant to quickly digest the food and get rid of it. because our intestinal tract is much longer, suited to high-fiber foods and slower digestion, when we eat meat it simply stays in our digestive tracts too long, rotting and giving us colon cancer, slowed metabolism, etc.

i thought we were suppsed to be herbivores.we have strong molars fit for grinding meat & herbs.i dont know much about the digestive tract except that its really long.i know dogs have short ones & it takes them about 8 hours to digest a carnivorus diet,and around 14 (??) to digest a kibble?

do things move thru ours slower or faster depending on what we're digesting?
i dont think its 'nessicary' to have our meats packaged..its a luxury for us lazy modern people

but my main point to this topic is finding a way to prevent the lives of rodents from being trivialized. let's face it, wouldn't a snake also eat a week-old kitten or puppy? or bunny? the snake will eat whatever it can fit into his mouth~~ we're the ones who decided rodents, esp. mice, have the least important lives. why not feed a snake dwarf hamsters? what's the difference except the price? and from the many comments here, it's a fact that alternatives exist. why argue against the more humane alternatives?

rodents arent the only thing snakes eat..its pretty much what you hear about them eating.small ones eat bugs & crickets/etc.,the ones that can do eat rodents.there are also species that eat other snakes.
the big ones eat things like bunnies,foxes (probably really slow ones since foxes are good at defending themselves),& other larger mammals.

if a snake is too big for rodents in captivity,then they feed it bunnies & stuff.by bro works with a guy who has a 16 ft. burmese python that he feeds bunnies&larger mammals

sad as it is,they do feed hams to snakes...but yet again,you run into hte fact that hamsters are more expensive than mice,so people usually dont.

[hammy_fan]

i don't know how many of you have noticed this, but in petco they sell the white red-eyed mice as "feeder mice" for ppl who own snakes.

since the mice are right next to the hamsters and i always visit with the hamsters when i buy supplies, i've witnessed ppl buying up to 6 of the mice to feed to their snakes. oh, and the price of these mice? $1.50 each. the "fancy" mice (dark eyes and colored coats) are i think at least $5 or so.

i wonder what would be the better pressure on petco? insist they raise the price of the feeder mice to $5 each so ppl wouldn't buy them there? or maybe see if there's even a way to make the purchase of the snakes illegal for some reason? this would be better...

dunno... just my personal opinion, but i really don't get the mentality that wants to buy a giant snake, stick him in a tank where all he can do is just lie there under the heat lamp, and then feed this immobile reptile frightened, live little animals .

well, if they raise the price, ppl will fo to other stores and petco will loose money, thats all they care bout......

[SouthPaw]

well, if they raise the price, ppl will fo to other stores and petco will loose money, thats all they care bout......

Well...Petsmart doesn't sell feeders at all, and I think they must be doing pretty well money wise. If Petco raises the price or stops selling them all together, I don't think it will be a huge money loss. They will still make plenty of money off the pets and supplies they sell...Plus, people don't have many other store choices. From what I gather, most of the smaller pet shops either don't sell feeders, or they don't sell any anmals at all.

But...then I wonder about Petsmart's "no feeder" deal. Their small animals are not expensive, so who's to know if someone did buy a mouse and fed it to his snake? Personally I think they should raise the price on the pets. Then maybe people wouldn't view them as disposable if they had to pay $15-$20 for it, so they might give them vet care...

[hammy_fan]

Well...Petsmart doesn't sell feeders at all, and I think they must be doing pretty well money wise. If Petco raises the price or stops selling them all together, I don't think it will be a huge money loss. They will still make plenty of money off the pets and supplies they sell...Plus, people don't have many other store choices. From what I gather, most of the smaller pet shops either don't sell feeders, or they don't sell any anmals at all.

But...then I wonder about Petsmart's "no feeder" deal. Their small animals are not expensive, so who's to know if someone did buy a mouse and fed it to his snake? Personally I think they should raise the price on the pets. Then maybe people wouldn't view them as disposable if they had to pay $15-$20 for it, so they might give them vet care...

in a way i agree, but insted of raising the price pet shops should , maybe give people a test befor they buy the animal, or tell them you must bring in a suitable cage and show it to them,
Because if they increase the price, then we wil have to pay more too, and i personally dont think too many ppl would buy them if they were 20 $

[Kelly_Bear]

thats a pretty good idea
a breeder i was going to get a ham from had that going...



none of the big shops near me sell feeders..petco only sells frozen mealworms,crickets etc.

[SouthPaw]

In my opinion, if they don't want to spend $20, they didn't really want the animal that much. If I wanted a mouse, I would spend whatever it took, because I *want* it. But if you'll just quickly forget about that mouse because of the price, I question how much that person really wanted it? Just my opinion, though...

[Kelly_Bear]

i agree...you shouldnt want an animal just becuase its cheap.i think thats how tons of people end up with hams.they see one,think its cute,get it for the cheapest amount they can & dont think about how to care for the pet properly.
instead of say,a dog which costs thousands of dollars to care for,their parents let them get a cheap 'disposable pet'

[Hannah]

:)A human eating cow meat is like a snake eating a mouse... it's natural...

A true carnivore digests meat compleatly, unlike people, the average old man has 5 pounds of undigested meat in his stomach. Humans also can have heart/weight problems since we are not designed to consume that much cholesteral. If it was "natural" to eat meat we would digest properly like preditory animals.

[Kelly_Bear]

i think its more of a matter of them eating too much meat.people eat meat 2-3 times a day or more!thats a ton of meat to digest.

[cow32323]

meat is part of our culture. My inlaws for eg offer meat at their prayers its compulsory . and everyone later has to sit and eat some .

as for feeders .. well *shrugs* its debatable . everything has to eat . we are all part of the food chain .a snake keeper is no better or worse than a hamster lover . What I object to is inhuname housing of feedrs just because they are food

mei

Edited by cow32323, 21 February 2005 - 12:45 AM.

[panther]

You know... I've been thinking about it. I mean, you can't just feel for one animal... you have to feel for them all, or else its really not fair. You see, if there's no feeder mice anywhere, then there shouldn't be any feeder crickets, either. They're animals too, right? Sure, they might be uglier, but that is so superficial if you hate bugs because they're 'gross.' Is it really fair that only mice shouldn't be feeders, and crickets should?

[Kelly_Bear]

nope,i dont feel any worse for the mice than the mealworms.
but most people dont have crickets as pets,so they dont have the whole pricing issue that bugs me.
i feel bad for all the pets who have to get eaten,but thats life.everthing has to eat.